Essays and Musings

Confessions of a Kiss and Tell Angler

Greys MeadowHotspotting. Spilling the beans. Blabbing your big, fat mouth. Kiss and tell. No matter what you call it, mentioning online where you’re fishing can raise some grizzled hackles and get you blackballed. Cold-shouldered. Kicked out of the brotherhood of the angle.

There’s a stream I know, a relatively small thing. I like to fish it. My fishing buddy Dan is the one who introduced me to it. I recently had a banner day there. It is called “Bonneville Creek” by us. That is not its name. Dan asked me not to tell anyone about this creek. I keep that promise.

There’s a bigger river, it is wide and long. It has beautiful scenery and even more beautiful fish. It’s a few hours from my house. It is my favorite river to fish. It is the Greys River in Wyoming.

Why would I name one, my favorite river of all time, but not the other?

First, let’s take a look at some of the reasons to take into consideration when revealing your fishing location (I’m sure I missed some too):

  • fishing pressure
    • existing
    • projected
    • what it could handle without degrading the fishery
  • size of fish
  • catchability of the fish
  • average number of fish caught
  • specific hatches
  • location of water
    • remoteness
    • accessibility to urban populations
  • accessibility to water
    • distance from parking
    • overgrowth/undergrowth
    • public/private
  • regulations
  • size of water
  • proximity to other, more “famous” waters
  • if fish are/aren’t caught
  • species present in the water
    • your favorite
    • species of concern
  • size of audience of the “publication” that does the naming
  • habitat condition
    • pristine
    • need for rehabilitation
  • existing information about the water to be fished
    • local knowledge (word of mouth)
    • widespread knowledge (published in books, magazines or popular online sites)
    • research data

Many of these criteria are interrelated and play off each other: size of the water will dictate what kind of fishing pressure might be acceptable. The larger the water, the more widespread the knowledge about the water will be. Etc.

I believe the term “hotspotting” more typically refers to naming a specific location on a water where the fish are being caught. As far as this post is concerned, that’s not what I’m talking about here. I’m only referring to naming the creek, river, stream, lake, etc., not the precise location on that water.

Everybody comes up with the criteria that guides their decision as to whether they will name a location or not.  I have noticed that some people tend to be more paranoid than others and feel that all naming of places is unacceptable. That’s their prerogative.

Here’s my theory. I’m not too worried about many of the places I personally go because they are either too far away from major population centers, require too much work to get there, and usually contain too small of fish for most anglers to bother with. Or it’s such a large body of water with so many possibilities that a few more on the river won’t bother the fishing.

I figure almost any water that is an hour or more from any sizable population center (let’s say 20,000 or more), and requires a mile hike or more to get to the water, there probably isn’t too much of a concern naming the water. Most anglers just aren’t going to be bothered with the time and effort to go there. Unless the size of the fish is something special (say the average is 16″ or greater). But let’s face it, there really aren’t a lot of those waters around. Most anglers are too lazy to take the time and effort when the reward is smaller fish.

I also take a slightly snobbish/elitist/misguided (whatever you want to call it) approach that those who are looking for native species, which are often smaller, are typically not your trash-the-habitat and harvest-all-the-fish types of anglers. Part of the psyche of the native species angler is that they like the pristine conditions associated with the species they are after. If anything, they might be a little more of the hardcore environmentalist type. These are just the type of people I would like to see find the locations I fish so they will become involved in the protecting of the habitat and fish species.

Another factor is that my blog has a fairly small readership, and I’m not too worried about those couple of people fishing the waters I mention—it won’t impact the waterways because there aren’t enough readers who live close enough to make an impact. That leaves those who are not regular readers of my blog who may stumble across my blog. But the only way that is going to happen is through a search. If they did a search for a river I have named, they already know the name of the river, so I’m not telling them anything they don’t know, other than a fishing report.

Let’s look at this a bit more closely. Let’s say I have the name of a creek in mind. Let’s make it the Thomas Fork that runs along the eastern edge of Idaho. Trout Unlimited had an article in their magazine about the creek about three years ago, that’s when it first crossed my radar. It’s about an hour and a half drive from my house. Well, I just got finished “naming” the river. Let’s say someone out there really loves fishing this river. Are they now mad because I just named the river? Possibly, even though I didn’t say anything about the quality of the river. Even though Trout Unlimited had an article about it that reached a far larger readership than I can possibly hope to reach. Even though the book, Flyfisher’s Guide to Idaho mentions the river. Even though the following documents online not only mentions Thomas Fork, but has maps, fish density, etc.: Management Plan for Conservation of Bonneville Cutthroat Trout In Idaho; Movements of Fluvial Bonneville Cutthroat Trout in the Thomas Fork of the Bear River, Idaho–Wyoming; Or TU’s famous CSI. Even though all those places mention it, if I happen to mention it on my blog, and somebody out there likes that river, they’ll get mad at me if I talk about that river on my blog. But, like I said before, anyone stumbling across my site is just as likely to stumble across these other sources as well.

Since my main species of concern are native species, I’m really not that worried about naming any place that has nonnative species, no matter the fish size, location, etc.

But there is the conundrum one is faced with when the talk turns to species of concern. There are two camps here: name the waters so something can be done to protect them, don’t them so they remain protected because no one will know, so they won’t get fished out. The problem with the “don’t name them” camp is that considerably more damage is being done to habitats by cattle grazing and improper stocking than by anglers. The more anglers who are aware of the waters, and can see the problems already existing there, then the more pressure can be put on management agencies to do something about it.

So,why do I name Greys but not “Bonneville”? The main reason is that Greys is large (50+ miles) and can handle more pressure. Bonneville is small (about 1 mile of fishable water) and couldn’t handle any more pressure. A couple of ancillary reasons is that Greys is near another, more “famous” river that relieves any pressure Greys would get if the other river weren’t so close. Bonneville—no such luck. Many people in the area around the Greys are already familiar with it. Bonneville, not really, it’s pretty much a “secret” creek in that I’ve never seen it mentioned in any of the popular literature (it is found in research literature).

The overriding reason why I’m a “kiss and a tell” angler is because I like to share—I want others who are willing to put the time and effort in, to find the same joys I find. I don’t want to offend anyone, but it seems almost childish when I come across the paranoid types who withhold all names in all circumstances, even when the likelihood of enough other people angling there that it becomes a problem (and I propose that few waters actually fall into this category). It comes across as, “It’s mine and you can’t have it.” Are there times when some names should be held in reserve? Of course there are, like “Bonneville Creek”—I kiss and hold this one tight to my lips.


Quiz

Let’s look at a couple of scenarios to see if there is any reason someone shouldn’t name the water on their blog or fishing forum:

  1. Would you not name any of these: North Umpqua, Sacramento, Madison, Green, Au Sable, Potomac or Delaware.
  2. A remote, 18″ wide, 1 mile long desert creek down a 30 mile, two-track dirt road followed by a 6 mile hike with a 3000′ elevation gain to:
    a) potentially catch a couple of 6″

    1. Yellowstone cutthroat.
    2. stocked rainbow.
    3. browns.
    4. bluegills.
    5. yellowfin cutthroat. (this one is thrown in to test your cutthroat smarts)

    b) consistently catch dozens of 6″

    1. Yellowstone cutthroat.
    2. stocked rainbow.
    3. browns.
    4. bluegills.
    5. yellowfin cutthroat.
  3. A remote, 20′ wide, 15 mile long desert stream down a 30 mile, two-track dirt road followed by a 6 mile hike with a 3000′ elevation gain to potentially catch one 30″ brown trout.
  4. A stream, close to your hometown (population 100,000), that is 4 miles long, 10′ wide, no one ever seems to fish, but you
    a) consistently catch five or so 4″-8″ trout.
    b) consistently catch five or so 14″-18″ trout.
  5. A stream, 1500 miles from your hometown, but near a city (population 100,000), that is 4 miles long, 10′ wide, and the one time you went there you caught
    a) five or so 4″-8″ trout.
    b) five or so 14″-18″ trout.
    c) one 23″ trout and one 12″ torut.
    d) no fish, but you saw some rises.

.

There are plenty more scenarios. But I’d like to know, when do you kiss, but not tell?

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Discussion

26 comments for “Confessions of a Kiss and Tell Angler”

  1. So you have evolved from the Cutthroat Stalker to the Cutthroat Kisser…hmmm. I am glad you are limiting your indescretions to fish. I hope no more secrets get out. I wonder if the new title would increase readership on the blog? I’ll let you experiment with that one.
    Let me know when you are ready to go chase the cuties. I am sure there are enough to share. I too have been given a “ST” this trimester of school. Lots of free time for Batman this September-November. Wonder of Wonders!

    Posted by Talking Bull | August 30, 2009, 3:20 pm
    • Ahem, I’ll be ready to chase the cutties or cuttys (thank goodness my wife doesn’t read this blog) soon. I’d like to give “Big Bonneville” a try this week one day after school. If you can’t swing it, then I’ll head up Logan River after school Tuesday. Temple Fork.

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | August 30, 2009, 4:25 pm
  2. Very nicely summarized, many factors to consider….and you can bet I wouldn’t keep quiet if I found a yellowfin cutthroat stream!

    Chris

    Posted by Chris | August 30, 2009, 4:08 pm
  3. the internet , blogging, online discussion groups , fly fishing club websites have changed everything , especially the enormity of kiss and tell consequences…

    Posted by rod | August 30, 2009, 5:33 pm
    • Hi Rod. Yeah, definitely some potential for blabbing too much. But I think I’m coming at it from a slightly different angle from a lot of people because I’m in a relatively small population area with a fair number of streams all with at least dirt roads running their entire length and relatively little private property. Most rivers I name are either known to everyone around, or are far enough away from big populations, that I doubt me mentioning them would make a difference. The times are definitely different with the internet, so I’m not even comparing “before internet” to “during internet.” I’m more looking at does my little 2 cents, on my blog, make any difference compared to what is already available. I might have a completely different reaction if I lived somewhere else and if I was a forum visitor (there gets to be some pretty ugly stuff on some of our more popular rivers in Utah).

      I guess what I really hope is that anybody naming a place uses sound judgment about potential impacts before naming. At least that is what I have tried to do.

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | August 30, 2009, 6:40 pm
  4. i like this post scott cause i couldn’t agree more with your criteria.

    Posted by mike doughty | August 30, 2009, 9:35 pm
  5. Good topic and discussion. I guess that on a blog and given the remoteness of the water naming streams is fine. The real transgression occurs on forum boards.
    “I went down to this or that river and fished this stretch, and I caught X,Y, and Z.” Then the next day twenty cars are at the pullout. People are increasingly lazy and have less time and patience for exploration. They want to get down to the water and just rip lips. Exploration and the joy of finding new water is priceless to me.

    Your criteria and examination are excellent as always!

    Posted by Erik Helm | August 31, 2009, 11:07 am
    • Thanks for swinging by. I agree that forums probably have more potential for loose lip syndrome. I have heard of the exact problem you mention on a couple of rivers here in Utah with one of our local boards. I’ve luckily never experienced that. One would think that common sense would prevail at both ends: the person only names waters that won’t suffer a big impact, and the one who sees a river named carefully examines the criteria to see if it’s really that big of a deal instead of automatically coming unglued. I’ve had a couple of people comment to me on the blog not to name a place, but I’ve never seen some of the vitriol spewed in some forums.

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | August 31, 2009, 11:27 am
  6. I like your reasoning and mostly agree. I did however return to fish the Portneuf for the first time in 18 or so years after reading your blog post late last summer. Was very nice. I was the only angler I saw that day and the fishing was quite good.

    Posted by Kevin | August 31, 2009, 4:58 pm
  7. I am not a big namer of places. Bigger, known rivers etc I might drop the name on my blog every so often, or a lake name. I don’t really see a problem with naming things I just got in the habit of putting up trip stories without getting too tied up with the “where” of it. I typically take plenty of pictures and if someone wanted to figure out something I didn’t name, it would not be very hard. With the level of readership I have I don’t think it matters one way or another :)
    The main reason naming probably doesn’t matter in almost all cases is that you are only speaking of a particular day on the water and it is a static picture in time of conditions etc. Besides that, angler skill plays a huge role in whether someone could see a “great” report and actually go out and emulate that success.

    Posted by wyoflyfish | August 31, 2009, 6:08 pm
    • WFF,
      I’m with you on blog readership–even if everyone of my regular readers showed up at the same location at the same time, that would be a whopping five people hangin out to fish together ;-)

      You’ve got a point on the “static picture” idea and skills. I’ve specifically sent a couple of people to the Greys River, and have talked to a handful of others, who can hardly catch anything there. Last guy I talked to about two weeks ago caught 1 fish between the two of them in 8 hours of fishing. If you don’t know where they are, knowing just the name of the river may not be much help.

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | August 31, 2009, 6:51 pm
  8. Scott,

    The Internet is a great way for native trout enthusiasts to share knowledge and experience. I have read some excellent articles and discussions on this Internet site as well as other sites.

    I appreciate the thorough “list of reasons to take into consideration” when revealing fishing locations. I agree that most native species anglers are conservationists and preservationists at heart. Their desire is not to destroy habitat or create pressure on species of concern. Neither is their desire to withhold stream names or come across with an attitude of “it’s mine and you can’t have it.”

    I believe “kiss and tell” is not an issue as long as the one telling gives careful thought to the impact of his telling. The question may not be: should you kiss and tell, but whom do you tell? If the telling is in relation to a stream or species that is common, or has protective measures in place, then the telling can be a great way to share the mutual love of native trout.

    Naturally, native trout anglers like to share the excitement and joy of a new location or experience with those that would appreciate the information. However, the telling in relation to rare or endangered trout, or the streams they reside in, may present certain “risks” that need to be evaluated.

    If a person shares specific information in a format that brings knowledge or awareness of a stream or species, then there are two possibilities to consider. A greater awareness of fish or streams that enrich the experience of all native trout anglers is made possible by sharing. Equally, there is the possibility of unforeseen consequences that may, or may not, impact the fish or streams we so love to share.

    There is no easy answer to the question you raise. Each native trout angler must not assume to know the motives of other anglers for sharing or not sharing names and locations. Individually, we must weigh out the impact of the information we share.

    Native trout anglers are a unique group. They can maintain their common interest, enjoy sharing their fishing experiences, as well as work together with biologists and conservationist to preserve, protect, and restore native trout.

    Again, I say the real question may not be: should you kiss and tell, but whom do you tell? My answer is:

    1. Always enjoy fishing for native trout and sharing information. It’s fun!
    2. If one becomes aware of a stream or a species of concern that is not protected or does not have a preservation program in place; then one should communicate with the local biologists and conservation groups about the need for something to be done.
    3. Share the joy and the excitement you experience with others, being careful not to reveal names or places of any species of concern until a preservation or restoration process is in place.
    4. Always enjoy fishing for native trout!

    CK

    Posted by CK | August 31, 2009, 8:59 pm
    • CK,

      It’s good to hear from another native fish enthusiast. Thank you for taking the time to include your well-stated thoughts. You bring some important points to the table concerning native species and the need to include biologists in the mix. Our little “Bonneville Creek” has been mentioned to our fisheries biologist friend. He finally had the chance to fish the river about a month ago. His reaction? “Don’t tell anybody about this place!” were his words of wisdom. We’ve never seen anyone else fish the place, but this past month was our first-ever experience with cattle along the river, and it was pretty ugly. We’ll see what the future holds for this amazing little fishery.

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | September 1, 2009, 6:10 am
  9. Firstly I agree, I think that the impact of “kiss and tell” posts on blogs like yours, and in online forums, is greatly exaggerated (I know that many don’t agree with this).

    Also, my general feeling is that the more good fishing spots that people know about, the less crowded it is everywhere. I’d think that the effect of “kiss-and-tell” should be to spread out angling pressure – not concentrate it.

    If you give anglers more options, then you should relieve pressure on the “overloaded” streams. The result may be a few extra guys on your favorite stream from time to time – but overall, the angling pressure should be lessened. I know this may not be a popular idea with some – but I’m sticking to it.

    That said – I too have a few streams that I’m not talking about.

    Posted by Anthony | September 1, 2009, 12:01 pm
  10. You know Scott……. you may have to go and edit some old posts then. If I remember correctly the name and location of “Bonneville Creek” are given in one of your earlier postings.

    ;)

    Posted by Kevin | September 2, 2009, 11:42 am
    • OK, I just did a search on my site, and the name didn’t come up. We used to call it “East Fork Bear River,” but I don’t think I’ve got the real name anywhere. Email if I do.

      I also kept the name of the place Dan and I fished with you on Henry’s Fork quiet. I named the name of the river (like I did just now), but not the specific location at the you-know-whats. Speaking of which, are we going to make it there this fall?

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | September 2, 2009, 11:51 am
  11. Sure…… late September through October is prime. I will head out for a scout in that direction in a couple of weeks.

    Looks like we are hitting a local creek tomorrow instead of the Portnuef. I will have to head down that way later.

    Posted by Kevin | September 3, 2009, 10:12 am
  12. Remember Scott…the Portneuf is a terrible fishery and there aren’t any fish in it. Don’t want Kevin wasting time on another terrible Idaho stream. Now…on the other hand…all the canals in Idaho are wonderful because all the water has been diverted off into them and the fish have been entrapped during the spring runoff and spawn. What I suggest is that you start a list of favorite canals to fish. That should ease the fishing pressure on the streams…not mention getting HB187 or the likes of it rolling again. What think Rep. Carles?

    Posted by Talking Bull | September 6, 2009, 5:59 pm
  13. Excellent thoughtful guide on when (& not) to tell.

    For rivers like the Big Hole, the more folks that get out there and enjoy them, the more conservation support we’ve got. Of course, I never tell just WHERE though…

    There seems to be a lot more awareness these days about not killing cutties, and it would be nice if more people fished & appreciated (and fought to protect) our native inheritance.

    Posted by EcoRover | September 10, 2009, 2:44 pm
  14. Excellent article Scott.. I couldn’t agree more!

    I’m not sure why naming the area is a must for some folks. I like to see the pics and read the tales, but I cringe when I see “blank river” being named.

    I’ve had issues with guys following my blog, which means… following me. SO, major hatches are left off until months after my trip. Images are shot low and next to the bank. Lesson’s learned along the way I suppose.

    If you out in the time, you get the reward. It has a cost of commitment and sacrifice. Most are not willing to do this.

    As always, I love your site

    Hope your boots are wet,
    Bryan

    Posted by BG | September 23, 2009, 7:16 pm
    • Good to hear from you Bryan!

      I’m coming to realize in just the past couple of weeks that there might be a little creek that is far away and somewhat off the beaten path but might be getting overused, which is really surprising me. We have to choose if, who and when we share vital info with.

      Boots are definitely staying wet!

      Posted by Cutthroat Stalker (Scott) | September 23, 2009, 10:04 pm

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